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Corona Virus Discussion Board - March 14, 2020

Good morning!  Thanks for a good discussion last night.

Here's a fresh board for Saturday, March 14. Let's hope for good news today!

Comments

Nutty Flavor said…
Unfortunately, some bad news to start out. Sweden, a country near where I live, is having to re-use one-time-only medical equipment because of shortages.

Doctors in the Stockholm area say the number of affected has risen so quickly that they are having to re-use disposable masks and visors.

The head of the local hospital authority, Björn Eriksson, told the general health authority ten days ago that this would happen, but nothing was done, and as the number of affected continues to climb he expects the shortage to get worse.

It will be interesting to see how different health systems perform in this crisis. Sweden's has been much praised around the world for being tax-financed and free to the user.
Nutty Flavor said…
Also, just looking back on yesterday's board, I see a few posters getting angry about specific politicians.

If we could shy away from that, I'd be very happy.

I have no problem with a poster stating "Politician X has recommended closing the borders and bringing in the military, and I feel this is the wrong approach for this reason."

I just get headaches from long paragraphs about how this or that politician is a very bad guy or gal.

Portcitygirl said…
Morning, Nutty. In your opinion do you think Trump has ordered
enough breathing tubes? Also, how can he get "enough" and the Italians can't? The hospitals where we live and where most of my family lives have been "at capacity" since fall 2019.

Regarding Sweden hc system, the textbook from which I taught 8th grade history highlighted the pros and cons of socialistic medicine. One example was of a male from Sweden who had experienced chest pains and he was sent home 3 times. When the 4th time came around he was finally given surgery. This was an 8 year old textbook around circa 2000. Based on this information, if true, could it be possible that even 20 years ago Sweden's hc system was strained?

One last thing, Fauci has been involved in the CDC since 1974
and has well known the dangers of virulent pandemics. I'm certain the WHO has been aware as well. With all the missteps our world leaders have made during this crisis, it appears most of our countries are woefully unprepared. Shouldn't they have projected this and stockpiled resources? My heart sinks to think our global leaders may have had nefarious intentions in releasing a bio weapon upon us. It just doesn't add up to me. Also, I wish I had screenshot this, a source around a month ago, I believe from Rense, stated that the virus was created in a lab at Duke University! Rumors abound!
Portcitygirl said…
Oh, and just one more thing more. My brother reminded me to wash up to the elbow because the virus is airborne and we touch our mouths/ faces with our forearms as well! I forget to do this.
xxxxx said…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw

Watch this video to learn a lot about this virus, from someone in this field for 30 years
This all started in November, when this virus jumped from Pangolin to human. At the infamous Wuhan wet market. It did not escape from a bio warfare lab in China.

If you hunt and eat deer the above video is also informative about wasting disease which is waiting to jump to humans from deer.
Nutty Flavor said…
In general, I don't find it useful to blame anyone for what they would have/could have/should have done.

Stockpiling resources for a possible pandemic is not cost-free; it requires taking funding away from other priorities like schools and hospitals and the elderly and people suffering food insecurity before the pandemic. And what is happening is unprecedented in modern times. What type of politician takes away resources for people who need them because of what at the time was purely theoretical?

@XXXX, sorry, but it beggars belief that the virus would break out so close to China's Level-4 biowarfare lab yet have no connection to it.

As I said yesterday, it had long been known that employees had been taking "leftover" and "used" test animals from the lab to sell at the wet market.

Portcitygirl said…
xxxxx

Thank you, I've heard about the wasting disease as well. Don't you think " those in the field for 30 years" should have had a faster approach to containment given their robust knowledge with these virulent strains coming out of Asia? It just seemed to me that they were very slow to act.
Nutty Flavor said…
Even if they should have had a faster approach, what does looking backwards do for us now?

When this is over, a thorough analysis will be needed.

At the moment, we need to focus on keeping people calm, safe, and healthy.
Ava C said…
@Portcitygirl - I read that you should wash your wrists when washing your hands and you shouldn't wear watches as wrists are a forgotten area for hygiene.

I just posted on yesterday's virus blog before I realised there's a new one, that I'm keeping my fingernails short and have given up rings for the duration. Hospital staff can wear wedding rings but are not supposed to wear anything else on their hands and I think we should be following that too. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this in the media that I've seen. I've never forgotten watching my cookery teacher making pastry with elaborate rings on and the rings getting all claggy and horrible. So my favourite flashy 'Norma Shearer ring' has been resolutely put away.
Portcitygirl said…
Nutty,

I get that and I'm not really placing blame on politicians here, although we have some pretty crappy ones, but the WHO et al whose one main responsibility is to prepare our govts to have a solid plan in place because, in theory, they have known this to be a future likely outcome. I guess it's so much worse than expected maybe they were caught off guard like our local govt was for Matthew and Florence. Maybe if we can get through this without too many deaths going forward, a better plan will be in place when the next bad strain comes around. I hope.



Portcitygirl said…
@Ava C,

I agree! No rings and I have horrible pollen allergies and am constantly rubbing my itchy nose and eyes😱. So as to avoid putting my hands on my face I have been using my forearm which probably had all sorts of germs on it because I wasn't washing them along with my hands. I'm pretty OCD, think Jack Nicholson in "As Good as It Gets", so you can imagine the soap I've stockpiled! Haha!😊

I agree, Nutty. Keep calm and carry on. I'm sorry for the Conspiracy theories. I think it's genetic and runs in my very dysfunctional family. Lol.

Have a great day, Nutties! I will be checking in periodically to see if there is any new updates.
Fairy Crocodile said…
I think Nutty is right it is too close to a military lab for coincidence. And I am sure world leaders have the info. They are trying to avoid this splashing out to the open, because the panic will increase manifold, and people may even start attacking Chinese. Imagine if you were told China released a bio weapon on the world!
Fairy Crocodile said…
Another point there was an article about Chinese party official blaming America! for bringing virus to Wuhan. It tells me two things
1. Projecting the blame
2. Info virus is created is out and China is looking for ways to distract and disinform.
abbyh said…
I have been reading that elevated blood pressure is a factor in many cases.

This could be part of why it is targeting older populations.

I have pretty normal range but this morning, I hurt my ear and went with pain aspirin over some other as the other can increase blood pressure. This (apparently) only works if taken in the morning (in the evening it can increase blood pressure according to Dr. Google).

Take away: think before grabbing something medication over the counter.

Animal Lover said…
I live in the PNW, all the schools in the state will be closed until the end of April. Some of the public libraries in the Seattle areas are closing for a month. The purpose is to slow the community spread and to give health care providers a chance to treat cases.
The YMCA in my areas is still open but has canceled all classes and child care.
Nutties be prepared to see a sharp increase in the number of cases and deaths in the US and UK in coming weeks and then a leveling off as the social distancing reduces the spread of the virus.
Politico has an interesting story about Karlie Kloss's father who is an emergency room physician passing on health tips to Jared Kushner who is talking to his father-in-law , the President.
Finally there are reports a vaccine trial will start on humans bypassing animal testing.

Off topic: Megs is tone deaf.
CatEyes said…
Breaking news at 1am US EST (this morning) , the bipartisan bill to help the coronavirus situation has passed.

>>>“This Bill will follow my direction for free CoronaVirus tests, and paid sick leave for our impacted American workers,” Trump wrote, adding that he was directing Cabinet secretaries to issue regulations ensuring small businesses would not be hurt by mandates in the bill.

“I encourage all Republicans and Democrats to come together and VOTE YES! I will always put the health and well-being of American families FIRST,” the president wrote. “Look forward to signing the final Bill, ASAP!”

@Wizardwench, Snopes fact checking site explains Trump Did Not say the virus itself was a hoax. He was referring to the issue being used by Democrats against him.. Here is link which gives detailed recounting of the circumstances.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/?collection-id=238766


CatEyes said…
Sorry Nutty, I went back and saw you already addressed the 'hoax' issue. Glad I found this Swopes site as it is intriguing to see what is true or not about politician's controversialremarks.
Scandi Sanskrit said…
Thank you for this, Nutty. 💜
SwampWoman said…
Another Florida resident has died from the coronavirus. Don't know the details but believe it was travel-related as she died out of the state, I believe in California, so probably from a cruise ship-acquired infection. 25 new cases were announced overnight. Interestingly, many are in their 20s and were infected in Europe.

In Jacksonville, the zoo is shutdown, the parks are shut down, the libraries are shut down, the schools are shut down (statewide), government offices and meetings open to the public are shut down...all in an effort, as the Jacksonville mayor pointed out, to slow the curve so that the hospitals aren't overwhelmed and hopefully we can lower the oncoming fatalities. Meanwhile, spring breakers are everywhere. The beaches are open and thousands are there. They've asked medically fragile people which includes those aged 60 and above to self-isolate. We have a LOT of people here from Europe (and the middle east) for the Proton Beam Therapy Centers. All of these people are going to be medically fragile.

I believe that the mayors in south Florida are quite concerned because there are a lot more positive cases there.

I expect domestic air travel to be suspended in the short term (but this is not an official governmental policy, just what I expect).
JHanoi said…
Yesterday a DM article said the drugs asthmatics and highblood pressure patients take changes the shape of their cells and Raises their risk from the virus.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8111149/Medication-taken-1-3million-raise-risk-coronavirus-scientists-claim.html

Don’t forget to dry clothes, especially underwear, towels, sheets, etc. for 20 minutes on high heat. Viruses live /can survive in the newer hi-efficiency washers and dryers because they don’t become hot enough to kill microbes anymore. The hi-effiecieny is designed to save money/ resources, not kill bacteria, viruses. So todays washers and dryers just spread viruses around to all the other clothes and live in the washer waiting for the next load. If one person is sick in the family, it just spreads to everyone else.
JHanoi said…
https://time.com/4676920/washing-machine-germs/
JHanoi said…
Drug article is for high blood pressure and diabetics, not asthmatics!
SwampWoman said…
FWIW, there have been some people that have been discussing autoclaving them (the masks) or, in an extremely desperate situation, putting them on a rack inside an InstantPot at high pressure for 15 minutes. (I think that could be dangerous because the material grabs onto particles by electrostatic attraction, what will steam do to that?)

I think the best thing to do is put them in plastic bags, label them, and not use them again for 30 days (which is what husband and I plan to do if this thing lasts for several months). We are keeping our fingers crossed that the heat, sunshine, and salty sea air are going to help wipe this thing out and that people will be able to point and laugh at me for buying my hurricane goods so far ahead of time.
SwampWoman said…
We set our hot water heater at 150 and line dry the clothes when possible (UV rays) but the dryer temperature would probably be better.
SwampWoman said…
Governor DeSantis' (Florida) latest news conference enumerated the number of Floridians infected through international travel (Asia, Iran, Egypt and most recently, increasing numbers from I; however, many are now getting infected from people coming in from out of state, to wit: New York. He believes domestic travel/flights from heavily infected areas should be/will be curtailed.
SwampWoman said…
Oops, most recently increasing numbers from IRELAND, not "I". Must have been typing too fast.
Portcitygirl said…
Just heard from my friend who knows our fed Senator and he told her not to let her 80+ parents out of the house as this is much worse than they are letting on so as not to cause more panic. We have had two test positive in our county at 2 public schools. So our numbers are set to go up.
Este said…
I'm surprised and pleased to see you started this board. I was just looking for a break from coronavirus with your other blog but it's nice to have this avenue for discussion. At the university where I work, they made the call for staff to work from home for at least the next 2 weeks. I've been stocking up on food but not as much as what I"m seeing on the news. I have a man and two cats living with me and so don't have a big family to feed or worry over. I guess the silver lining here is this disease seems to be sparing the young. I am pretty freaked out about this. This account below from a woman living in Italy has a bonafide Facebook account and seems to square with what we're reading in the news so I'm sharing. If any of you are on Facebook, the person is Cristina Higgins:
I am writing to you from Bergamo, Italy, at the heart of the coronavirus crisis. The news media in the US has not captured the severity of what is happening here. I am writing this post because each of you, today, not the government, not the school district, not the mayor, each individual citizen has the chance, today to take actions that will deter the Italian situation from becoming your own country’s reality. The only way to stop this virus is to limit contagion. And the only way to limit contagion is for millions of people to change their behavior today.

If you are in Europe or the US you are weeks away from where we are today in Italy.

I can hear you now. “It’s just a flu. It only affects old people with preconditions”

There are 2 reasons why Coronavirus has brought Italy to it’s knees. First it is a flu is devastating when people get really sick they need weeks of ICU – and, second, because of how fast and effectively it spreads. There is 2 week incubation period and many who have it never show symptoms.

When Prime Minister Conte announced last night that the entire country, 60 million people, would go on lock down, the line that struck me most was “there is no more time.” Because to be clear, this national lock down, is a hail mary. What he means is that if the numbers of contagion do not start to go down, the system, Italy, will collapse.

Why? Today the ICUs in Lombardy are at capacity – more than capacity. They have begun to put ICU units in the hallways. If the numbers do not go down, the growth rate of contagion tells us that there will be thousands of people who in a matter of a week? two weeks? who will need care. What will happen when there are 100, or a 1000 people who need the hospital and only a few ICU places left?

On Monday a doctor wrote in the paper that they have begun to have to decide who lives and who dies when the patients show up in the emergency room, like what is done in war. This will only get worse.

There are a finite number of drs, nurses, medical staff and they are getting the virus. They have also been working non-stop, non-stop for days and days. What happens when the drs, nurses and medical staff are simply not able to care for the patients, when they are not there?

And finally for those who say that this is just something that happens to old people, starting yesterday the hospitals are reporting that younger and younger patients – 40, 45, 18, are coming in for treatment.

You have a chance to make a difference and stop the spread in your country. Push for the entire office to work at home today, cancel birthday parties, and other gatherings, stay home as much as you can. If you have a fever, any fever, stay home. Push for school closures, now. Anything you can do to stop the spread, because it is spreading in your communities – there is a two week incubation period – and if you do these things now you can buy your medical system time.

And for those who say it is not possible to close the schools, and do all these other things, locking down Italy was beyond anyone’s imagination a week ago.

Soon you will not have a choice, so do what you can now.

Please share.
Este said…
One more resource to share with others. I found this interview between Joe Rogan and infectious disease expert, Michael Osterholm to be very informative: https://youtu.be/cZFhjMQrVts
Nutty Flavor said…
I saw an interesting comment on Twitter today suggesting that one of the reasons things went so bad so quickly in a Italy was that primary care is poor, so everyone just went to emergency rooms, where they were not segregated from other patients.
Nutty Flavor said…
Also interesting: the French patient profile is very different from the Italian one. In France, more than half of the infected persons are under 60.
Portcitygirl said…
Este,

Thank you for sharing. I have posted your info to everyone I know and asked them to please share ASAP.

NC has closed all schools k12.
Nutty Flavor said…
Queen has left BP for Windsor due to Corona Virus fears.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11175256/queen-coronavirus-quits-buckingham-palace/
SwampWoman said…
I am so pleased to hear that she has gone to Windsor if that is safer.
Ava C said…
Robert Peston (the first UK journalist to predict the 2008 crash) is reporting the UK government is planning to introduce mandatory 4-month quarantine for all over 70s in the next 5-20 days. My parents in their 80s are due to move house to Scotland in three weeks time, 300 miles away. What happens then if they are trapped for 4 months where they are? I haven't seen any coverage of what happens if you're in the closing stages of buying a house. Quite apart from what happens to elderly who aren't online and don't have family to leave supplies at their door, which is an even bigger problem. This is all so worrying.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-14/elderly-to-be-quarantined-for-four-months-in-wartime-style-mobilisation-to-combat-coronavirus/

This is an ITV News article but the Express and DM are also running with it now.
SwampWoman said…
Also, thanks for the heads up re the ACE inhibitors. SwampMan is on one.
PaisleyGirl said…
Good evening everyone, I finally realised there was a second Nutty blog, thank you for starting this, Nutty!

I just wanted to share a few of my experiences in the Netherlands during this pandemic. As you all know, the Netherlands is the size of a postage stamp, yet we already have 959 infected and 12 dead. The hospitals in certain areas are already becoming overwhelmed. I think we are approximately a week ahead of the UK and possibly 2 weeks ahead of the US. Nearly every venue is closed here except for schools and I expect they will be shut on Monday. My son is in his high school exam year, so I have no idea how he will sit his exams now. The first Corona patients have arrived in my neighbourhood, a family a few streets from our house is in home quarantine. The situation in the shops is absolutely mental, it is like shopping in the Soviet Union in the 1980's. I've never seen anything like it.

My immune system is not good, so I really appreciate all the zinc and vitamin tips. I am glad I am able to read all the different perspectives from different countries on this blog! Thank you all!
SwampWoman said…
One of the items of interest on the (Florida) governor's conference was that weight limitations on trucks have been removed so that grocery store shelves can be restocked. One of the speakers said something like "So they're out of toilet paper. They'll get more. Buy everything you need. You will need it on hand if we need to move on to stronger mitigation steps." Everything from renewing driver's licenses to professional licenses that people may have had to stand in line to renew have been put on hold for 30 days. To me, that screams that the governor and emergency management team knows that the state of Florida is going to come to a screeching halt soon and that nobody will be going anywhere for any reason except for an emergency.

When asked if he had any knowledge of the duration of this emergency, he said that he believed it to be 6 to 8 weeks.

A moonshiner could make bank at the moment by producing 70 to 90% ethanol and making hand sanitizer (grin). I think I may contact a couple and suggest it.
PaisleyGirl said…
@SwampWoman, I think 6 to 8 weeks is on the optimistic side. I read that the Irish government is considering closing the schools for four months, coincidentally the exact same time span mentioned in the British press for self quarantine for the over-70's. In the British press it is also mentioned that they don't expect the peak of the pandemic until June. This says to me that we are all in for a much longer time of shutdown / quarantine than we think.
Shaggy said…
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Ava C said…
@Unknown - many thanks indeed for that info. At the moment I'm worrying about them actually being able to move to Scotland as they should when the new people are due to move in to their old house. I'm even looking at how much a taxi would cost for a 300 mile journey, if any taxi drivers are willing to work of course.

Whenever I try to find out how the virus is affecting people in the middle of selling and moving house, all the articles go on about the effect on house prices, not the practicalities of being further on than that. I've written to the Daily Telegraph to ask them to consider writing an article on it. There's enough about consumer rights when cancelling holidays but nothing on moving house.
Shaggy said…
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Ava C said…
@Unknown - it's because the UK govt seems to be going for getting herd immunity to this virus in our population (on the assumption it will now recur like flu) which means at least 60% need to be infected and they need to shut away those who would die rather than recover, i.e. the elderly, as our Health Service couldn't cope with the huge numbers of critically ill elderly. Also it would look morally unacceptable to be frank. This is the main explanation I have found after hours online.

Robert Peston who broke this story is getting slammed on Twitter for irresponsible reporting. Something of this magnitude, if true, should come first from the government. To make things worse, the Health Secretary Matt Hancock got on the Twitter thread to direct worried people to his article in the Telegraph, which is behind a paywall! People are infuriated and asking is this any way to run a government? We need clear authoritative guidance. Frequently. Leave no room for this horrible and scary confusion.
Ava C said…
@Unknown - my mother in her 80s is just like your father. Packed social life. However she has accepted this week that her age puts her at greater risk as fatalities to date have shown, not so much for her as she is healthy but my father is more vulnerable. So she is staying in the house completely and even gave up her farewell lunch with her friends before (hopefully!) moving to Scotland. As they are all elderly they may never see each other again as my mother will be 300 miles away, and who knows where this will all end? I am moving also (in my 50s) and am not saying goodbye to my friends either, to avoid putting my parents at risk. I think real sacrifices have to be made now.
Shaggy said…
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Shaggy said…
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Ava C said…
In Matt Hancock's Telegraph article just out (he's Secretary of State for Health) he writes:

"In the near future we will take further steps. SAGE has advised the next planned effective interventions will need to be instituted soon, including measures to ‘shield’ older and medically vulnerable people from the virus. Everyone will need to help to ensure they get the support they need to stay at home, and to protect them from the consequences of isolation: loneliness, and a lack of support. Government, local councils, charities, friends and neighbours will need to be part of the national effort to support the shielded. We will provide expert advice and support as soon as we progress to this phase.

"Next week we will publish our emergency bill, to give the Government the temporary powers we will need to help everyone get through this. The measures in it allow for the worst case scenario. I hope many of them won’t be needed. But we will ask Parliament for these powers in case they are."

***

'Shield' and 'shielded' could be carefully chosen words to use instead of 'quarantine'.
SwampWoman said…
Perhaps they are going for herd immunity as speculated below but, as France (and Italy) are getting younger people becoming very ill and needing respirators to survive, I think the more likely answer is that there isn't enough equipment for everybody and, if a person has reached a certain age, they will not be treated. I believe that is why they have instructed those of us that are 60 and above and those with comorbidities to stay home if possible.
abbyh said…
A friend's mother who is in an OAP home has been advised that they are not allowing visitors to the home unless medically necessary but are suggesting family talk with the residents on FaceTime.
Ava C said…
@Unknown - oh then you need to keep pleading with your father as he is vulnerable in the same way as my father. With a heart condition he would be less likely to be able to cope with the extra labour his body would go through if he developed respiratory problems of the kind this virus causes.

This is why my mother isn't taking any risks now, even though she'll be stir crazy and grieves for the elderly friends she can't see. We think if we got the virus we'd pull through but the odds for my father would be much worse. Get your father to take a look at any one of the excellent explanations and drawings there are online about what the virus can do to your lungs. Then think about how much his heart would have to work to get the oxygen his body needs. I sound heartless spelling it out, but now is the time to do it. For the elderly. They are often the core of our families. Irreplaceable. I do hope things get easier for your family Unknown. I will be thinking of you.
Anonymous said…
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SwampWoman said…
I believe so too. He was using CDC guidelines, I *think*, so they could be wrong or else 6 to 8 weeks sounds a lot easier to sell than "Hey, guess what! You get to stay at home and not go out for FOUR MONTHS with NO PAY! How wonderful is THAT?"

I may have to sign up for early social security retirement much as I hate to but I suppose a reduction in benefits beats being dead. I suppose.

Have any of you ladies/gents read about a 20 to 30% permanent reduction in lung volume after having this disease?
SwampWoman said…
Elle, I have read that some of your hospitals are really getting slammed with patients and hospitals are lacking enough PPE. What are your observations or what have you heard?
SwampWoman said…
Ugh. Another Florida patient (a 77-year-old man) has died from the virus, and two more in Duval county (Jacksonville) have tested positive. Georgia is at 66 that are positive now, I believe.
Shaggy said…
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Nutty Flavor said…
Just set up a fresh March 15 board.
Anonymous said…
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Natalier said…
Commenting from Singapore. We were on the top 3 together with China and Japan for most infected # until S.Korea pushed us off the top 3 and today, we are barely hitting top 20. First some stats:

Island size is only 721sq km
Population 5.9M
Density approx 8.5K people/sq km or 21.4K/sq mile
Covid-19: Less than 200, 0 death
Travel hub for Asia, over 1M China nationals either working or studying here.

There is no social distancing in Singapore, there is not enough space or you would fall off the island. We live in high-rise buildings and most homes are with air-con. Our flats are also tiny 60-94sq/m for 3 - 5 persons. These perfect conditions for spreading viruses esp in lifts.

Luckily, we have had 0 death so far. Currently, over 70% of the new cases are imported. That means people were infected abroad and returned to Singapore. The govt here takes quarantine and social tracing very, very seriously. Foreign uni students and workers have been kicked out of the country for good when found to have broken their quarantine and charged in court for lying about their whereabouts before and after symptons showed. The police force helps with contact tracing and all close contacts are immediately informed and goes into self quarantine. They have to monitor their health very carefully during that time and so far, it has borne fruits as over 85% of the time, each case can be traced to an existing cluster. When a new cluster is found, we are given notice. It is getting more difficult now as more and more cases are imported. We even have foreigners from our neighbouring coutries coming in for free covid-19 treatment. It is frustrating because many of the neighbouring countries claim to have zero case but the truth is they are in denial. Their countrymen are flying in here, some on private jets and taking advantage of our healthcare here. We expect an explosion of numbers soon as a neighbouring country had a religious gathering of 15K people last week and some returning to Singapore and Brunei have already been confirmed to have caught the Covid-19. Sigh...
Shaggy said…
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